Today we are speaking with Robin Gestal, Partner and EVP of Operations for Haven Senior Investments. Robin speaks daily with owners, operators, buyers, sellers, developers, and investors of senior housing. Hear how the owners are faring as the states open up for business. How have bottom lines been impacted by COVID? What are buyers and investors looking for in this market? What are the lenders up to, and what is the general attitude she is seeing in the senior housing market today?
Today we are speaking with Robin Gestal, Partner and EVP of Operations for Haven Senior Investments. Robin speaks daily with owners, operators, buyers, sellers, developers, and investors of senior housing. Hear how the owners are faring as the states open up for business. How have bottom lines been impacted by COVID? What are buyers and investors looking for in this market? What are the lenders up to, and what is the general attitude she is seeing in the senior housing market today?
Welcome to the senior housing investors podcast. If you are an investor or want to be an investor in senior housing, then you're in the right place. Hi, I'm John Hauber of Haven Senior Investments. We are pleased to present our newest episode where we bring you the innovators and leaders across the full spectrum of assisted living and senior housing, all of whom provide for the betterment of our senior population. The host of our show, Pamela Pyms has background in the industry. And she will be interviewing our honored guests. Hi, Pam.
Pam Pyms:Hi, John. Thanks very much. It's great to be here. Today, we're with Robin Gestal. She is the partner and Executive Vice President of Operations for Haven Senior Investments. And we're excited to have her on the show today. Hi, Robin. Hey, Pam,
Robin Gestal:I am thrilled to be here. Boy, it's exciting to talk to you.
Pam Pyms:Well, I'm glad. Same here. Can we start off with just telling the audience a little bit about you your background, what led you to senior living? And then in particular, what led you to Haven? Sure.
Robin Gestal:Okay, it's long story. How much time do you have lots of time you go. Okay, well, I lovingly call myself a patchwork quilt master of none, because I've got lots of colors and lots of stories to my history. Not sure how much depth but I'll turn it to at the beginning, my my early career days were on Wall Street, lots of fun back then my focus was fixed income sales and trading mortgages, all of that capital markets. It was a really interesting time, they were just starting to get creative with cash flows and revenue streams. And so we started stripping things, you started to see the development of things like zero coupon bonds, mortgages, where their interest in their principal payments were being separate and sold. So we're able to really craft investment vehicles for investors specific needs. So I think that those years were very formative for helping me today to help people put really creative deals together. It's kind of funny, that was a long time ago. But it's been a it's been a great tool slash scale, I guess, for senior housing deals. So we'll touch back on that later. But kind of funny how we all started. After the Wall Street years, I took some time off to stay home and raise my kids, which was awesome. And then when I got back to work, I went into real estate. I loved all things real estate and got involved in every aspect of it that you could, as an investor, I did, I restarted out rehabbing properties, I started with single family homes, I probably did 50 or 60 of them then moved into apartments. I got to be so that I was teaching coaching, speaking, investing, doing kind of everything I could with real estate really, really enjoyed it. Also, during that time, I lived in a small town in Connecticut, and we had a volunteer SMS system. And so our full ambulance program was run by volunteers and I joined them to be a volunteer EMT in my town. And I did that for about 10 years. It was really fun. I really loved serving our community that way. But the interesting thing about that is that 90% of our patients of the people that we worked with were seniors. They were elderly people living at home. Also in facilities, we went all over, but they just weren't being cared for properly. I didn't feel they were always, not always they fell often. They were lonely. I just kind of got my dander up for seniors during my 10 years volunteering as an EMT. That's really cool. Yeah, so I developed a passion for them alongside my developing sort of skill and knowledge in the real estate world. And at one point, I just said, You know, I think I need to take a sidestep and do all seniors with relation to real estate. So I just kind of take a step over. I didn't know anything about senior housing, but I, I felt it was calling me. So to get knowledgeable. I just dug into the internet and I read everything I could I called people I decided I didn't know what that looked like for me, but I was going to learn everything that I could. And in my quest for knowledge and learning, I came across John Hauber, who founded haven SR investments, and we got to be talking one thing led to another and I asked if I could come on board. he gladly said yes, the company was very small back then just a couple of people. There was jobs for everybody that wanted to wanted them. Whether it was getting the coffee or running the show. We did it all. So I stepped into that role. years back and loved it, loved it loved it and john and i kind of tag teamed and grew together. And one thing led to another and john and i became equal partners, and we've been growing the company ever since. Wow. So it's kind of a funny See ya, I'm not straight line story, but that no, I say here,
Pam Pyms:I'd say you're a very impressive patchwork. Okay, so congratulations on, you know, such a varied and wonderful career. And, and it's, it's really nice to hear that you've landed in a place that calls to you the way it does. Maybe we could remind our audience about haven senior investments, mission.
Robin Gestal:Sure, absolutely. That's kind of what got me going was the focus of our company is to support those who support and care for seniors. So there's so many amazing people out there taking care of seniors right now. And they needed more help, frankly. So we're set up to support them to give those non institutional owners and operators you know, the salt of the earth, people who are doing this job 24 seven, to give them the support that they need, both financially, from a consulting standpoint, advisory standpoint, whatever we need to help them, improve their businesses meet their investment goals and objectives. So we're there to support them. So our the focus of our, our business really is that non institutional owner. So because of that, we tend to sort of focus more, I'd say, our sweet spot, or main highway lane is under 100, bed facilities that tend to be owned by families, Mom and Pop individuals, owner operators. So our mission really is to to support them in buying, selling, developing, investing, financing, whatever aspect they need to grow their businesses.
Pam Pyms:Oh, that's terrific. That's such a wonderful niche to explore to those non institutional owners. Speaking of them, what are you seeing from them? Are they contemplating selling? What's happened to their business throughout COVID? Talk to me about it?
Robin Gestal:Ah, long answer, there are a lot, lots lots to talk about there. So COVID was hard. As I said earlier, these people are literally the salt of the earth, they really are doing the frontline work. And, and, honestly, they are also most of them baby boomers themselves. And so many of them are approaching retirement years themselves, which is, you know, perfect timing for us to be there to help them because they're sort of starting to think about what next looks like, and trying to get their, you know, their affairs in order to sell their business and plant their retirement. But COVID caught them off guard. Boy, COVID was a tough year for everybody. Imagine being them, fighting to keep your residents safe, keep employees coming back to work. And, and at the same time, you know, deal with everything that we dealt with with COVID. So it was a really tough, tough year for them. So I would say that if they weren't ready to retire, ignite in 2019. They're really ready now. Yeah, that was a tough year. Yeah, yeah, it was. So most of them did very well. We know it's it's not the story you hear in the media of the doom and gloom that they keep reporting on skilled nursing facilities and stuff like that. That's not across the board at all. Oh, that's good to hear. Yeah, it's really it really is not reality. So they did very well. Most of them kept COVID out of their facilities, they worked really hard. But what actually really did happen, though, is even though they may not have had any COVID in their facility, the world did shut down. And no one was allowed to move move about the country. So no one was allowed to move into a facility or out of a facility really, everyone was sort of stuck there for a while. So they had no move in they have normal attrition, because these elderly, elderly patients, you know, they are rolling towards the end of their lives. So there's a normal attrition that goes on. But the the laws did not allow for any new movements. So all of their occupancy just naturally went down as they were unable to bring in a new residency. And despite the fact that residents needed and wanted to come in, it was just a lockdown. So their occupancy went down, which of course, you know, that's their revenue numbers. So that affected their bottom line. And then the one other kind of additional component to that is their expenses did go up because they did have all that extra PP they had to deal with and lots of they had to buy all these all those extra features that were expensive at the beginning because there wasn't enough for everybody. And also to try to keep their employees coming back as the employees were fearful as well. So they were paying lots and lots of extra pay bonus wages, Hero pay whatever they could do to keep the caregivers coming back. So they had really increased expenses. And then of course, decreased revenue due to the lack of new patients that could move in. So it was a downward pressure on their business even though they were So successful and keeping cohort COVID out, they still had these issues. So you know, 2021 is showing some recovery there. But they've got to get back to where they were so right, even if you did everything right, you're still struggling. It's true. And it's sad, but I know they're gonna get there. And we need them so desperately. And
Pam Pyms:you know, we're so thankful to them, too. Absolutely. But tell me about the buyers. So what are you seeing from them? Are they trying to go in? And I want to say, are they trying to take advantage of the lower occupancy? Or what what are they looking for? And who are they?
Robin Gestal:Interesting, they are a wide variety of people. And yes, of course, you do see some of those I caught we call them bottom feeders, people that come in and are really looking to take advantage to be I guess, opportunists and really kind of grab what they can. And you'll see those all the time. In general, though, buyers are this, this asset class senior housing in the time I've been in it as is been kind of the sexy new asset class. So we've had a real flock of new buyers into our market. So those new buyers are still there, along with the tried and true who've been in the industry for a while. And because they were put on hold for so long for the last 12 months. They're they're eager to get back to business. So we see an appetite that's really strong in the buying world, not only the people who are always there, the new people, and then the people who have been sitting on their hands for the last 12 or 15 months.
Pam Pyms:Mm hmm. And the lenders, what what about the lending environment? And were there any deals disrupted due to COVID?
Robin Gestal:Yes, so as we know, the lenders are really the gatekeepers in this industry, they decide who buys and who sells because they decide they control the large debt component of the deal. And so lenders are very, very powerful when it comes to the transaction. When COVID first struck, lenders got quite nervous, no one knew what the world was going to look like. And so the lenders really did pull back. They just put a halt on all lending. So we actually even had a couple of deals that were scheduled to close it just Nope, stop. We're not, we're not going to do anything. We're hitting pause. And they hit pause for several months, as things settle down. And then as the summer approaching, we got into the mid summer of last year, they they started to stick their head back out and some deals started to close, we were actually able to close for for sale transactions during the height of COVID, which was really great. So you know, they came back to the market and they're back now, but they're not back quite the way they were. They're still a little bit tentative, particularly when it comes to some of their riskier loans like development loans and things like that. Some of the more tried and true loans like HUD SBA, things like that are pretty much back to where they used to be nice. Yeah, yeah, we're really seeing if businesses back to usual, we're as busy as can be. But so the lenders, the lenders are back in the game, which is great. And of course, you know, you remember the cares act, all the iterations of it that we've seen, have had some incentive programs for lenders. So HUD had an incentive program to get people to refi, SBA had an incentive program, encouraging loans and transactions by offering waivers on their application fees. And they were even offering at for some period of time, three months, and then six months of making the deferred payments, they literally made your interest in principle payment for you for the first three or six months of your loan. So there are lots of great incentive programs to try to encourage people back to the table. Are they still in place that as far as you know, some of them are? Yes, some of them are some of them are dribbling away, if you will. They're sort of petering out. But some of them are still there, particularly the SBA. Parts of that incentive program are still there.
Pam Pyms:Oh, terrific. That's great. Yeah, that's helped a lot. Yeah, I can imagine, I guess, you know, looking at say, just the general market, the general things you see sort of, you know, with the supply, for example, Talk Talk to me about that.
Robin Gestal:Yes, I'd say as I touched on before that the owners, the owners are tired. The owners have had a rough year and the owners, as I mentioned, are baby boomers themselves many times. And so what we're seeing right now is those tired, people are saying, Okay, I'm ready talk to me. And so we're seeing a great deal of people getting ready to come to the market. Now some of them are waiting to get those numbers back where they want them to be, as I mentioned earlier, and some of them are ready to go right now. So we're seeing a lot of people gearing up to hit the market. And then there's as I said that that chunk that's waiting for the six to nine months to get their their numbers right where they want it to be to get the sweet spot of a sale. But what I expect is I expect to see a big glut of inventory in like the next six to nine months. I mean, I'm just hearing it left and right people are people are getting ready to come to the market. When you say the sweet spot of a sale, yes, well, these properties are priced on a multiple generally of how much money they're earning. So they look at the net operating income of the business and two that is applied a cap rate, which is determined by the market. And and that determines the price. So it's it's a, it's an equation that determines the market value, if you will, and so that the better the noi net operating income, the higher the value of their, their business. And so it's very, very much in their interest to get their noi as high as possible. So if they've been struggling, as I mentioned earlier, with lower revenues or higher expenses, if they can get those back where they were pre COVID, those, it evens out that their net operating income will go back up again, and hence the multiple and their, their property is worth more. So that's their goal.
Pam Pyms:That's understandable. And and I guess when you talk about the formula more or less than I know, there, there are definitely cap rates that are applied to, to the formula. What have they been? Where did they go? And what are they doing?
Robin Gestal:that's a that's a large question. I will. It's a big industry, right? We talk about everybody there, there are six bed facilities and senior housing and there are probably 600, bed facilities and senior housing. So so we got a dizzy going on here, I will speak to kind of that sweet spot, that main driving lane that I talked about that we're in at the beginning, were sort of like under 100 beds, is where we see so many of the owner operators that we talked about at the beginning. And so in that, in that area, I'd say that we saw cap rates prior to two COVID, I'd say in the range of probably eight to 10, maybe even as high as 12, cap rates dependent upon the location, the age of the building. I mean, all kinds all kinds of things. I mean, everything that would affect a piece of real estate honestly affects the cap rate. So so it's a big variable. But in in that sort of owner operators size space, I'd say eight to 10. It's very, very common in the in the clients that we're working with. And then I'd say so post COVID, after that, there was a little bit of pressure on cap rates, so lower prices, a higher cap rate. So a little bit, again, because of that noi issue that I mentioned earlier, and some of those, those opportunistic buyers are looking for a higher cap rate. But in general, I'd say that we're seeing a lot of this have the same slightly upward pressure. But we've closed as I said, several deals during this COVID year and, and the cap rates really were not affected. So it's too soon to say but we've seen we've seen a pretty stable market. That's great, what I was gonna say what about the attitudes toward it all attitudes of well, the the buyers see opportunity. Sellers seller's attitudes are they're tired, but and you know, our job is to take care of those sellers and make sure they get what they deserve, what they've earned, what their businesses are worth. So we spend a lot of time working with them, prior to coming to the market to help them even if we need to consult with them for a little while to help them get that noi where it needs to be. So that that's our goal is to is to maximize their investment. And so we'll we'll work with them as long as it takes to get their numbers where they need to be. I know you you all work all over the country, don't you? We do we do our company. Our company was founded in Colorado. But we've grown quickly and we now cover all 50 states. We're certainly busier in certain states than others. It seems it between the regulatory environment and growth of population and just general investor interests. Some states are busier than others. But in general, we do business in all 50 states is East Coast selling more than West Coast. Are you seeing it more in rural areas? Are you seeing it more in urban areas? Yep, there's definitely trends. I will tell you that the states where we are the busiest is probably Texas but Texas is a very popular state. We all know that the Texas cities have been growing probably some of the fastest in the country. Another area of the country that super popular is the southeast California. So the Midwest to all areas of the country have need there is need for senior housing in every single neighborhood in the country. Then, at some are just more densely populated than others. Some are wealthier than others but assisted living is a need not Bought a luxury and there's a place for it everywhere?
Pam Pyms:Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's good to know, too. How did haven navigate during COVID?
Unknown:Well, we all were like deer in the headlights there for a minute or two. Weren't we all? Yeah,
Robin Gestal:right. But once we took a deep breath, we had, as I said, we had a couple of deals stop. And so we were there to support our clients, which of course, they were, they were right on the front lines. But what we actually in listening to our clients and what was going on, we took the opportunity to pivot a bit, we understood that transactions weren't going to happen right now. But there are clients still had this cash on cash return and need for their bottom line to be healthy. We recognize we are in a very low interest rate environment. And we took advantage of that and plus with some of the incentives that were being offered by some of the government programs, to really reach out to our clients and see if we could talk to them and work with them to look at their debt and restructure their debt. And is this a time to refinance? Should we go and see what we can do about refinancing your loan? Is it going to qualify for HUD? Do we go back and look at SBA? So we did we spend most of a good chunk of the year when things were on hold, working with clients on debt restructuring, and seeing if we could help them take advantage of the lower interest rate environment?
Pam Pyms:That's great. Seems like you do a lot more than just broker. That that, especially with the financial help, is that something you absolutely have a way? Or is that a service for a fee, I'm trying to understand and help the audience understand how they can utilize haven senior investments sure, for for themselves, give me a little bit of a breakdown on how it works.
Robin Gestal:Absolutely. So first and foremost, we are a consulting and advisory firm. So we are there to support our clients with whatever they need in their senior housing space. And so honestly, most often, they're asking us for brokerage, we probably get asked for brokerage 80% of the time these days, so that is a strong, strong need. But we're also there to support them, as I think I mentioned earlier with with consulting when if they need help with their operations, if they need help with the marketing, if they need help, getting your occupancy where it needs to be. Some of our clients are developers looking for help with getting their development project off the ground, their entitlements, all the many, many steps that need to be taken, you help with entitlement work. Absolutely, we have a whole consulting team that just works in the development space, as well as works in the operation space. So we bring wheat, we bring all of the talents and all of the experience to the table, it's we just whatever they need. So we get asked to do brokerage most often. But we have the capability to do all of this. And the consulting part of our company, I have to say is growing very quickly, we started out doing all brokerage. And I think that's what we're known for most often. But as I as I mentioned, we are a consulting and advisory firm. And we bring all the services to the table. lending, as you mentioned, is one of them. We recognized early on that you can't facilitate a transaction for your clients, if you can't help the buyer with their financing. So we started to reach out and find lending sources. So we are often tasked with helping them find a lender helping them find capital to close the deal. So we have various lenders that we refer them to some some lenders do pay us referral fees, and some don't. But our job is to get that deal closed for our owner seller client. And so we'll send the buyer wherever they need to know go to get the get the capital that they need. So there are lots of resources there. And that's an area of our company that's always growing. Do you help them find equity sources too? Well, we have not up until now. But we are just starting to get involved in that. So we're beginning in a an offshoot, if you will, of haven senior investments, another company called haven co capital, and that's going to be focused 100% on structuring finance for buyers and sellers. So we will work on finding them equity sources as well as debt sources. So that company is we've been doing that in house but we realized there's such a need for that that's going to break off and have its own area of growth. And that's coming down the line. There'll be much more in that department.
Pam Pyms:Well you guys are really a one stop shop. This is great.
Robin Gestal:We are and then the other the other big component that just to round out that the transaction side of it, that they the buyers need a lender. And many times buyers are also looking for management company. They're looking for someone to help them eat, whether they're a first time in senior housing and they're looking for some help, or they're a larger investor and they just can't be in all places and they're looking for a management company to sort of oversee the the on site operations. So being able To provide management services is also a way to facilitate the transaction and help everybody get away, walk away from the deal with what they need. So we've learned that by doing, we've learned that that's a missing piece. So we've been doing more and more of that. And I think that we're moving in the direction of perhaps putting together a management company of our own, because there's just such a need such a need, and we can't find enough resources. That's amazing. I
Pam Pyms:was going to ask you, when you say you've been helping in management is that in finding other management companies primarily, and then just sort of putting them together? Or as you say that you will create an actual management company branch where you or haven will be the managers? Is that what I'm hearing?
Robin Gestal:Yes. So up until now, whatever help we give on the management side is part of our consulting services. So we just consult with them on their own management practices, on their own operations, marketing, all of that, as we just sort of help them with it, we look at it from a professional viewpoint, we know what the margins should be, we know where to trim, things like that. So we'll work with them on their p&l. But the next step, and what you're referring to is actually starting a separate management company to to actually take over their operations if they need it. So it's typical in the industry, that there are management companies that run the on site operations, and they charge a fee for that. And there just is not enough of them, particularly in the smaller space where we're talking about those owner operator clients. that more and more needed. So we just discovered that by doing we've discovered that by working with our clients is just a need. And because we can't seem to find enough companies out there to serve that need, we sort of said, Well, I guess we'll have to be one. And the city's the mother of invention, right? So we're working in that direction right now to try to put that that's an area of growth for us as well.
Pam Pyms:Yeah. You may not know this, because it may be all over the board. But what types of fees, what percentage do management companies typically charge?
Robin Gestal:what we see and in our space is usually around five to 7% of their gross revenue. And the management company does does a lot of their administrative stuff. They do their hiring, they do their payroll, bookkeeping, regs and practices, marketing, set the tone and the culture oversee operation. So that's sort of higher level management stuff.
Pam Pyms:When you look at it that way, and you realize the savings an owner will have on those other aspects that the management company can do, it doesn't seem like it's necessarily that high a fee.
Robin Gestal:Right? I think that some people are aware, as I said, they're clamoring to have it and we just can't find enough of it for them. So right, yeah, it's a very valuable thing, especially if someone's moving into this asset class, that's never done it before, they certainly don't want to invent the wheel, they would like to move in with an experienced hand,
Pam Pyms:I would also imagine lenders want to see the move in with an experienced hand.
Robin Gestal:So true. So true. Lenders want to make sure that their investment is protected, they want to make sure that mortgage is coming back high. And so the more experience that goes with that, the happier they are, in fact, we have actually seen transactions where there's a new buyer into the space, who's got great equity, great credit, great, all that kind of stuff that that the lender likes, but the lender is a little nervous about their lack of experience. So if we can team them up with a manager makes it a lender so much happier, and it kind of closes the deal. So again, these, offering these services just helps everybody get what they need. The seller is able to walk, you know, sell his transit, sell his asset, get out of the out of his business and move on. The buyer gets what he needs, the lender is happy with a secure deal. Everybody seems to walk away happy when all the services are in place. So it's it's a win for everyone.
Pam Pyms:And you helped make it so so that's great. Gosh, I'm wondering, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you'd like to talk about?
Robin Gestal:Well, I one thing I'll say is it, we just love what we do at Haven, there's so much need for the services that we're providing that we people are so grateful to get off the phone with, it just makes us feel good. So when you're, you know, you're doing good, you know, when you're really helping somebody, it just gives you that great feeling on the inside. And so just knowing that our services are needed, that people are are moving forward with their objectives, getting what they need accomplished. And at the end of the day, we're serving those who are serving seniors, and that we're we're getting those people who I was picking up off the floor with their broken hips into a safe environment. That just kind of makes us feel good. At the end of the day. We know that we're Our job is to make sure those seniors are taken care of and this is the way we've found to do it.
Pam Pyms:Right. Well, I thought of one more question. especially knowing that you you do work nationally. And that the company originated in Colorado, do you have boots on the ground and other states?
Robin Gestal:We do we do. So we have kind of an unusual network of the ways that we work, we have our own in house team of employees, contractors, advisors, we've got a whole whole slew of ins in house team. But we also partner with sort of feet on the street, in states where we don't have where we don't have an in house person. And that works really, really well, because we bring the Haven brand knowledge, if you will, the depth of our market knowledge and all of the all of the traffic that our website brings us, we were able to bring that to the local knowledge about the person on the street, who, who really knows their local market, they know what's going on, but they don't have the the senior housing depth. So it's a great partnership. So whenever we have somebody that comes to us, it needs something in a state where we're not, we don't have one of our own employee own team members actively working there. We've got these great partnerships set up. So it allows us to really kind of cover everywhere.
Pam Pyms:I am so impressed with what Haven has done in a relatively short amount of time in this business. No, thanks. Yeah, congratulations, tell people again, I think it's gonna be on our outro as well. But how do they find you?
Robin Gestal:Okay, well, HavenSeniorInvestments.com is our website. And honestly, it is chock full of information, I highly recommend anybody who's interested in this field to stop by there's stuff there, about the lending situation, all the different loan products are there, the National inventory is up there. They there's information on how to value your business how to how to work through a development concept, just about every aspect of what we do is addressed in there. There's research articles, there's so much it's a great learning platform. There's also BIOS on all of us and all of our team members so you can learn about the depth of knowledge that we have when you speak to us. It's just a great one stop shopping for anybody in in the industry. And I can tell you, it's been a little bit like a honeypot, because we get a tremendous amount of traffic there. And it brings us people, buyers and sellers every day. So that's what enabled me to actually have a good pulse on what's going on out there. Because I'm talking to buyers and sellers every day. So I just hear what they're doing. And we're just we're really got our hand on the pulse of the market due to our website or website. It's been a real blessing. It is where you look located. Well, I'm speaking to you today from Wilmington, North Carolina. Well, that makes two of us. I'm in Asheville. That's right. That's right. I went but we're both recent relocators right. And that's right. You hear Yeah,
Pam Pyms:I'm from Colorado, too. Well, it's too bad. You're a little bit far away from Nashville. But maybe you and I can get together sometime. Nonetheless. You've got the mountains, and I've got the beach. What a perfect mirror. Oh, perfect, perfect marriage. I'm really happy to have talked to you today. And I hope that all our listeners find you.
Robin Gestal:Well, well. Thank you so much for taking the time I we we love talking about what we do. As you can tell I probably rambled on and on. But I could not do love senior housing. We love what we're doing. And we'd be happy to speak at length to anybody who wants to know more.
Pam Pyms:Yeah, well, I'm sure you're going to get calls because this has been just terrific. Thanks so much, and I'll talk to you again soon. Thanks, Pam. Bye Bye. Thanks for joining us today. This podcast is brought to you buy Haven Senior Investments. Haven Senior Investments is the leading faith-based senior housing advisory firm focused on providing their clients with the knowledge and expertise necessary to support their goals of buying, selling, developing, investing, or operating in the senior housing market. They can be found at havenseniorinvestments.com